In the past 18 months I have received a fair amount of correspondence to cactus.kate (at) hotmail.com from disgruntled investors in Finance companies. Some of the correspondence is very well-written and researched and with it quite compelling. Most of it sadly are mutterings of random nutcases. Whether they were nutcases before losing their money or not is a moot point. I have swapped notes with some other business commentators on these issues and they seem to have similar fan clubs. Those that heaps praise on you when you write something they like and then crap on you
like the sparrows they are when you even mutter in the lowest of tones that they should take some personal responsibility for their own stupidity, especially when you are trying to help them.
"Victims" of Finance Company CollapsesAll seek to ask for help (free) in solving the problem that they have lost $x and cannot seem to get help (free) to get the money back. As you all know I only work for free on very odd occasions when I am compelled to because something is extremely interesting to me. I ask each correspondent specifically how they made the monies that they lost in the Finance company in question. Almost all have stories about how they've lost the sale proceeds of a house in XYZ Finance Company Limited, very few state they have obtained their savings solely through either salary or sale proceeds of a business. I can only count three.
I ask this question because there is a certain irony of cashing out tax free gains on the sales of New Zealand's endless golden years of property bought from property developers to give back to Finance companies hoping for a return from companies that are giving money back to finance property developers such that people like themselves can...oh guess.....buy more property from property developers and sell it at a higher price than they bought from the property developer who is financed by savings from people who have made their money primarily from selling property.
Some invested due to financial advisors' advice. I told them to sue the advisors. That's a pretty obvious call with these matters to go back to those who retailed the investment to you as something that it wasn't when they should have read the prospectus.
Several Finance company collapses I feel are due to dodgy directors and inter-company dealings combined with attempted vulture investing from those inter-related parties and I have assisted those people in either putting them on to lawyers I know in Auckland for (paid) help (not one to date has followed through with my (paid) contact) or I have sent the correspondent off with lists of where to obtain more information about the directors and the Finance companies so they can assist their investor group further.
Several (well most) have written to Adam Feeley (adam.feeley (at) sfo.govt.nz for those of you who require his email). I now have devised a precedent copy of Feeley's stock standard reply which he seems to only send to people I consider the more sane of the complainants.
[I confirm receipt of this email and the previous xx you have sent the SFO]. {CK- for persistent emailers}
I can assure you that the SFO gives thorough consideration to all cases referred to it for possible investigation. And any decision to investigate and/or prosecute is made independently without any direction from any other person or agency.
We are aware of the level of public interest in not only xxxxxxxx but also many other finance companies. You will be aware that we are currently investigating and/or prosecuting persons associated with several of them; including Bridgecorp; Capital + Merchant; Dominion; Five Star; Hanover; Kiwi; Mutual; National; Rockforte; and South Canterbury.
We regularly review cases to determine whether there is sufficient, relevant information to commence a formal investigation. In this regard, we require more than evidence of financial losses. There must be prima facie evidence of conduct which indicates one or more possible criminal offences may have been committed.
In addition, we also have to consider whether the matter is one which could be more appropriately dealt with by another agency; whether there is sufficient public interest in pursuing a matter; and whether there are available resources to commence an investigation.
At this stage, the SFO has not made any formal decision in relation to xxxxxxx, and it would not be appropriate to comment in any detail. However, we are aware of issues being public discussed and, if and when we are in a position to comment publicly, we will do so.
Yours sincerely
Adam Feeley | Chief Executive | Serious Fraud Office | PO Box 7124, Wellesley Street, Auckland | 120 Mayoral Drive Auckland 1010, New Zealand | Mobile + 64 21 333539 | www.sfo.govt.nz
In other words Feeley is dealing with it. The bold is emphasised by myself. Just because you have lost money in the Finance company doesn't make it fraud.
Investors who have lost money in Finance companies have to accept that their money is
gone. The best thing they can do if they can is let the SFO and Securities Commission do their job. Problem is that even if their favourite Finance Company directors are found guilty of whatever charges, by either the SFO or through the Securities Commission it will not change the fact that they are all
unlikely to see a cent back of what they lost.
Instead of writing rants and conspiracy theory ramblings to Adam Feeley and Jane Diplock, both of whom have forests of paper littering their charges, they should be doing what every New Zealander did who was trashed from the 1987 stock market crash and get out there and make more money because you are going to get stuff all back unless your Finance company was government guaranteed.
Is this fair? Well is it fair I ask to set up a business and have a trend change or a government policy eliminate your business to a market value of zero? Is it fair to be sold a house that loses value through re-zoning? Is it fair for your business partner to steal all your company's money leaving you with the debts to pay? Is it fair to take out a student loan when you will probably not get a job that will allow you to pay it back within the next decades? Is it fair to give one decade of students an interest burden on their student debt and the next gets it all interest free? Is it fair to have an accident caused by the carelessness of someone else you are not allowed to sue that sees you lose your income and have to rely on ACC the rest of your life? Is it fair to have your house burned down when you were a day late paying the insurance? Is it fair to be married, build your assets, have your wife run off with half your wealth and then at a later you become bankrupt unable to claim what you gave away to your wife? Is it fair to be owed money by a debtor who then goes bankrupt and cannot pay you leading to the loss of your business? Is it fair to struggle for years to have a baby and then have one discovering it requires constant medical attention? Is it fair to not be able to have children despite years of IVF treatment that you had to pay for when the government stopped subsidising you?
Losing money in a Finance company that you chose to invest in probably doesn't rate on the "victim" scale among any of the above.
And in any case the nice friendly government who is borrowing more than a quarter of a billion dollars ($250,000,000) a week of money that will have to be repaid by your children has come along and forced your children to borrow even more and nicely "guarantee" many Finance companies to pay you back.
AbuseWhen answering emails of these "victims" I tell the truth even if they don't want to hear it. One very pushy lot tag teamed me and emailed me several times and when I said I couldn't post anything about their case because they didn't have any new information and I could not access anything available I was hit with this pearler in response:
Dear Mistress KateNow we see of what pocket you work for. We have a case and we know that we have a case we gave you the information for a post and now you will not use it. Shame on you and your fraudulent friends at the finance companies. I hope you are enjoying all the money they are no doubt paying you to write about them and mess with people like ourselves. I am 62 years old and old enough to be one of your parents. How would you feel if this happened to your parents? I am sure you would feel differently. SHAME! I lost the savings from many years of sweat labour and now all I have to show for it is a house that I may have to sell and I will now have to keep working.I hope you are happy now sitting in China and working out ways to sell New Zealand to the Chinese. SHAME.No RegardsxxxxxxTo which my answer was
Dear xxxxxxTomorrow morning when you get up please put your glasses on so you do not mix your medication with the goldfish food again.RegardsCK
Finance Company UTU
What we have now in New Zealand are a collection of online commentators and contributors playing lynch mob amongst the ashes of Finance Companies. Those who have lost money have successfully recruited those to their cause who haven't lost a cent and are inflaming passions in a war of attempting to pressure Feeley and Diplock to do things they probably cannot. Like make directors of the Finance companies pay back all the fees they earned. Many of these utu'ers have forgotten or never knew in the first place the whole concept of companies being limited in liability. The assets of directors and other shareholders do not actually belong to them. Directors will have to be prosecuted on reasonably large thresholds to most likely be fined or forced to repay monies they may have otherwise extracted from the company.
So I am going to now analyse two comments threads from Brian Edwards' post on Amanda Hotchin and pull out the best hits from the lynch mob Utu'ers. Remember this topic of these threads is Mrs Hotchin, the wife of Mark. This woman has probably never been near a boardroom her entire marriage to her husband nor would have been involved in anything to do with high finance.
The only people I would expect to have this amount of venom towards the wife of Mark Hotchin would be those who have lost money in Hanover. Remember also that Hanover was NOT in the government guarantee scheme so unlike SCF, the taxpayer has not been left with a cent more to borrow of their quarter billion a week, from the ashes of Hanover.
I asked politely on Edwards' thread for those who had lost money in Hanover to identify themselves for their splatterings above. I had no takers. So I give to you the greatest hits of just plain stupid comments on Edwards blog and then the NBR. Remember again, this is just the wife (and kids)......and even taking the crudest of numbers $500 million of Hanover funds divided by 17,000 investors is still only $29,411 per investor. The inflammatory claims that there are that many elderly people here who have lost all their life savings just does not add up.
Brian Edwards' BlogGary Stewart - "
Naive about the media and how the media and life really works when the golden spoon falls out of your mouth.......Tough on the kids, maybe so, maybe not. Maybe they will grow up to be better, and less self-centred, than their parents – odds are against it though.". Then tops it up with "
Of course personal partners and children shouldn’t be pursued by a lynch mob, but on the other hand, trying to run the naive/ignorance/innocence line is just a bit ….. rich".
PJR - "
If the media have misquoted her,I still have little patience for those who exhibit a lavish lifestyle while others suffer the consequences of Hotchins actions". So it doesn't matter that the quote that made most people turn dog on her, was actually correct?
Lesley gets all biblical and oversees a small point that the Hotchin's don't actually own all the property listed, plenty of it is mortgaged - "
Brian, when I read the email Amanda Hotchin sent to you and now the story in today’s NZ Herald and saw how much the Hotchins actually own and how much elderly investors have lost, my thoughts went straight to this Bible verse which hung in a frame on a wall in the house where I grew up in, and now hangs on my wall: “For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul”. Mark 8 verse 36".
L. Speirs "
Poor Amanda.Actions speak louder than words".
Ryansway comes in with an absolute charmer - "
They should pray none of those out-of-pocket investors have gang members for relatives, because they might view this as their right to a pound of flesh"......"
To NZ’s underbelly they are a bounty and a sitting target for exploitation, and they will find no sympathy from the NZ Police who will turn a blind eye to it".
"Getting a bit of attitude from reporters pales by comparison to having your windows broken every night and cars stolen, pets disappearing, and other unmentionable nasty things that are done to vulnerable people.
Andre Dromgool suggests Amanda is in control of the entire finances of the family - "
Amanda Hotchin is hated for living off other people’s misfortunes when in this day and age she has equal power with her husband to determine where and how their family live".
CN - "
Regardless of what she did or did not say, she has still happily enjoyed the riches gained by the actions of her husband and Eric Watson".
Merv accuses Amanda of the ridiculous - "
Amanda Hotchin is NZ’s very own Ruth Madoff."......."
Her writing the email, reveals that she was always a part of Hanover’s inner sanctum"...."
Not long after having wrangled the moratorium off the investors, the Hotchins hightailed it, shouting all their friends on a no-expenses-spared junket at the exclusive Vomo Is. resort in Fiji, for Mark’s 50th birthday bash". Once again confusing the whole issue that perhaps the Hotchin's had their own money coming into Hanover.
Lady Antebellum - "
Amanda Hotchin’s behaviour reminds me of someone who’s driven drunk, wiping out an eldely couple on a pedestrian-crossing, she gets out of her Merc, stumbles to the front of the car, throws herself on to the bonnet, wailing and carrying-on about the damage to the bumper and headlights". Yes well arguably the elderly couple were thrown in front of the car by their financial advisors or lack of them.
Mike brings Hitler and the Jews into the debate and before any facts are tried in a court declares Amanda has breached morality - "
Mrs Hotchin seems to have the moral compass of a real estate agent at a mortgagee sale"...."
At the end of the day, under the cold light of the law, it may be that she and her husband have done nothing wrong. But what about morally? In the US pre 1865 it was legal in some states to own slaves. I won’t even go into Hitler’s Nuremberg laws with regard to Jews. Just because something is legal, doesn’t make it right. And to demand $7,000 a week when most people get by on less than that a month, shows that the Hotchin’s moral compass is skewed to say the least".
Fred - "
If she truly cares about her children, then firstly she should explain to them why their father is so hated, how greed and his actions led them to flee their country"...."
She should convince her husband to front up, come back to NZ and find a proper work, etc"... I can't even add to that questioning her caring as a mother. Disgusting. And what is "proper work"? Hotchin has made it perfectly clear he hasn't been on holiday and that he has been working overseas. I know a novel concept for New Zealanders that you can work from overseas with the internet and all.
And from the NBR (most lack the creativity to make up a pen name)"
The most disgusting women in NZ.If she is sop caring why not live in a modern family home and ditch the expensive overseas holidays".
"
Did not read Mark or you complaining about the media when Hanover used Richard Long, Greg Muir, Tipene O'Regan and inappropriate advertising to suck in the hundreds of millions Dollars for Eric and Mark to play with".
"
When your husband runs a firm that literally steals huge amounts of money from trusting Kiwis, in fact he destroyed their financial well being and destroyed their retirement plans, you are going to be tarred with the same brush and you are going to have to deal with it".
"Don't for one minute have any sympathy for her or her husband. Think about the people that lost everything and will never get their say or opinion in the media".
"
Smart women usually leave their husbands in similar situation, instead of sticking up with some "failures" not enjoying any more pride. Perhaps this what they used to preach"...."And your children - explain to them why you can't return to New Zealand - why they can't play play with their friends - why they see the press articles and read what they read - oh, those lovely lovely dividends - happy are you, was it really worth it?"
"I have to feel sorry for her, but she and her children have profited richly from Hotchin's activities in my humble opinion"."The Hotchins are the victims?? Are they serious? Word is that they still show off to their friends about having a net worth in excess of 100m. Go figure. The jig is up".
"
Dear dear - poor old Amanda Macbeth is now having to pay the price for all those appearances in the gossip columns. What a come down - from "Auckland society queen" to shamed wife of a despised con artist"..
"Word of advice for her, fire all PR spin doctors and hire good divorce lawyer". From the sanctimonious crap above you would think the poor woman had murdered children in an orphanage!I was once
reasonably critical of her based on the Marshall article, but I commend Mrs Hotchin for front-footing it on Brian Edwards blog and drafting a reasonable response to criticism. She needs to now keep front footing it and release evidence backing her claims that Jonathan Marshall and his SST editors fabricated her now infamous quote that turned the country and most commentators against them. Mr Hotchin and Watson need to release more details of what was paid in dividends and what was reinvested in Hanover. Fran O'Sullivan covered this in slightly more detail in this column
in August last year. It also wouldn't hurt for Hotchin to disclose what he owned prior to Hanover and what therefore can be separated from any purchases of assets since.
The front-footing of course has come late in the piece but it is never too late to speak out and present clear evidence that stops some great NZ backyard myths continuing about Hotchin and her family's spending habits. Many that are likely to be false but have been kept alive by their silence.
Quite often those under investigation keep quiet for fear of what the media will do with their information but it is always better just to charge hard with your own releases because the media will write what they like anyway.
In the meantime the lynch-mob will continue to attempt to spread their Hanover Utu on all Finance companies that have failed to return investors deposits.
With all the hate speech it makes me concerned quite what this lot will do if after the investigations are complete by the SFO and Securities Commission of all finance companies, the end result is minor charges only or not enough evidence to substantiate fraud or criminality.
In any instance most investors will never see their losses back. So it makes you wonder why those non-investors who haven't lost a cent are just so damn vile?
It definitely proves a Kiwiblog thread to be a kindergarten morning talk in comparison.
"Dear misses Hotchie... hope you and your fair weather friends are reading this"...